Website transcript | Episode length 31:58
Hosts: Greg Laemmle and Raphael Sbarge
Featured guests: Mark Cousins, Embeth Davidtz, Jim Jarmusch, Sara Khaki, Mohammadreza Eyni, and Alexandre O. Philippe
This transcript has been lightly edited for readability while preserving the speakers’ meaning. Film excerpts and voice-over passages are identified where relevant.
Anniversary opening
Raphael Sbarge (voice-over): Two years ago, INSIDE THE ARTHOUSE began with a simple belief that films living beyond the mainstream deserve conversations as rich as the work itself. More than 100 episodes later, our community has grown to nearly half a million subscribers and four million views. To celebrate, we’re looking back at some of the moments you watched, shared, and made your own. Jim Jarmusch on FATHER MOTHER SISTER BROTHER, Mark Cousins reimagining a master in MY NAME IS ALFRED HITCHCOCK, Embeth Davidtz directing and starring in DON’T LET’S GO TO THE DOGS TONIGHT, Sara Khaki and Mohammadreza Eyni on their Academy Award-nominated documentary, CUTTING THROUGH ROCKS, and Alexandre O. Philippe tracing the legacy of The Texas Chain Saw Massacre in CHAIN REACTIONS. Different filmmakers, different forms, one shared belief in cinema’s power to surprise, challenge, and connect us.
Thank you for making room for these films and for spending two remarkable years with us INSIDE THE ARTHOUSE. Starting now. Alfred Hitchcock decided to take us on a guided tour through his remarkable body of work. What if you were able to tell his story in the first person? Celebrated filmmaker Mark Cousins takes us on such a journey, providing new insights on one of the most iconic filmmakers of all time.
MY NAME IS ALFRED HITCHCOCK with Mark Cousins
Mark Cousins: I just decided to watch all his films in order and try to imagine what he would say today. I’m very low-low tech, so I took a notebook and I just watched each film and I don’t know if you can see the pink notes. Every time I saw something interesting I made a little pink note and I knew I didn’t want to look at some of the most obvious themes in Hitchcock. So I decided to look at these themes and this piece of paper says escape, desire, loneliness, time, fulfillment in particular, which is not something we think about in Hitchcock. We think of glamour, suspense, don’t we? But I thought, what is there in Hitchcock’s films which are about fulfillment? And because I made this during COVID, you know, we were all sort of locked in our apartments, weren’t we?
You know, we were sort of imprisoned, you know? And so I was asking like many people questions about, you know, what do I really enjoy in life? What’s giving me pleasure in these extreme circumstances? And so there’s a bit of that, I think, in this film as well. And it was great looking back at this large number of films, 53 films, through the lens, through looking for themes like fulfillment and loneliness, et cetera.
Raphael Sbarge: The early films that you have clips of, I’ve never seen them. They’re pretty incredible, the black and white films that he did, just sensational.
Mark Cousins: Especially the silent work, yeah, which is very rarely seen.
Raphael Sbarge: How hard was it to find it all? Is there some kind of a library or repository for that?
Mark Cousins: Yeah, they’re mostly available now and restored. There’s one or two that actually the Irish one is not in good nick, but most of them are seeable and have been restored here in the UK. And some of the early ones, like there’s a film called THE RING from 1927, which is a boxing movie, is just really amongst his best work. So just when you think you’ve seen all the Hitchcock’s, you know, just of course, we’ve all seen North by Northwest and the birds and Psycho and the great movies and Rear Window. And then there’s more to discover.
Raphael Sbarge: What makes that film the greatest film and what did he do?
Mark Cousins: I think, you know, because it’s a silent film and Hitchcock, as we know, started in the silent period and in particular he started in Germany, like many of the greatest filmmakers, you know, he was then thinking really visually. And so he’s telling a story, you know, with minimal intertitles. It’s quite a passionate film about a man and a woman, but he’s really thinking visually, very influenced by the great German director, some of whom he worked with. What was really scary was finding somebody who could really do the voice of Hitchcock.
Alistair McGowan as Alfred Hitchcock (film excerpt): Okay. I’m ready to tell my story.
Mark Cousins: And I thought, I don’t know, like, who are we going to get to do Hitchcock? I didn’t want to use AI. No, I just thought, no, I don’t want to do that. So I spoke to my friend Simon Callow, the great actor, you know, and I said, who could do Hitchcock? And he said, the best ear in the business, not the best voice, but the best ear, the best listener to other voices is a British actor called Alistair McGowan. And I had known his work from TV here. And so we contacted his agent and said, look, I’ve written this screenplay, a sort of fictional screenplay about Hitchcock. And we sent it to the agent and I heard nothing. I heard nothing.
And then my phone went and a voice on the other end of the phone and it was offered Hitchcock. I mean, you could, I mean, this is utterly brilliantly performed piece of, you know, and Alistair McGowan’s a big tall guy, very physically different from Hitch. But I remember him saying to me, how much America do you want in this? Because Hitchcock, of course, was a Londoner, but, you know, over the years, there was some American in his voice and how much Leytonstone, which is the particular time that Hitchcock came from, and he could calibrate it. And I’ve worked for the best. I’ve worked with Jane Fonda and Tilda Swinton and Maggie Cheung and Deborah Winger.
And I mean, the best in the business, but to see an actor who could, there’s a particular neuro chemistry, I think, and hearing a voice and then taking it inside and putting it. I remember Alistair pulling phlegm up into his throat like this. All that stuff. Well, I was thrilled. One take, no, no retakes.
Raphael Sbarge: Oh, wow.
Mark Cousins: Wow. To see, I mean, acting is a mystery to me. I mean, I would be a terrible actor, but to see somebody do this so well. And then I heard from Hitchcock’s estate, you know, the lawyer of his estate. And he said, oh, Alfred Hitchcock’s granddaughters have heard that you’ve you’re making a film, which is an impersonation. They’re very interested. I thought, oh, but I knew I had to show them it. So I sent them a rough cut. And I think they were rather pleased.
Alistair McGowan as Alfred Hitchcock (film excerpt): For now, at last, it’s my turn to take you on a guided tour of my movies, my stories, peek into my world.
Raphael Sbarge: I imagine, I don’t know, I haven’t looked this up, that you didn’t go to film school, that you’ve that you’ve found your way.
Mark Cousins: Didn’t go to film school. Didn’t go to film school. I did. I did go to university and I studied, which was useful looking back. I studied film history, you know, and art history. And that was super useful for me, you know, to look at the great painters and painting as I just love painting. And so that really, I think, trained my eye a bit, you know, to look at an image and say, what’s in that image and where, how does your eye move around an image? You know, but no idea, you know, before I directed after the napkin thing that I mentioned earlier, I had not touched a camera. So so I was raw in a way, you know, and there’s something to be said for rawness.
Raphael Sbarge (voice-over): Please consider subscribing to INSIDE THE ARTHOUSE and take a second to like, comment and share. It’s the best way to support the show and help more people discover the conversations with the filmmakers you love. You can also listen to INSIDE THE ARTHOUSE on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. Based on a memoir of the same name by Alexandra Fuller, this powerful film has been brought to the screen by first-time director Embeth Davidtz, an actress who’s worked with filmmakers like Steven Spielberg, Robert Altman and Sam Raimi. Davidtz draws from her own experience growing up in apartheid South Africa to bring striking authenticity to the story of a family of white farmers in Zimbabwe.
DON’T LET’S GO TO THE DOGS TONIGHT with Embeth Davidtz
Embeth Davidtz: Sometimes when I’m talking about the making of the movie or the movie or the child or the other things, I don’t emphasize enough how absolutely everything the book was. So I read this memoir and the story of Alexandra Fuller’s childhood in Zimbabwe. It was all over Africa, but Zimbabwe is where we set this film. The writing, so the actor part of me, the characters that she created, the way she wrote Bobo and the way she describes her mother. So the actor part of me was like all the antennae were up and every light was going off. And I went, my God, these characters that somebody could play these characters. And then the story, the way she tells the story, this very sweeping story of her life. So the book, the memoir was everything.
And that was the thing that there was no part of me that had sat as an actor thinking I could be a director. I only ever thought I could be an actor, but I fell so much in love with this story, her story and these characters that then I thought, let me option it. It was sort of, I can option it. I think I could see this as a film. And then I couldn’t find a screenwriter. I thought, let me take a stab at it myself. I’ve read enough good scripts and bad scripts to know the difference really between what does the script need? And again, the book, the book was just this absolute lavish feast of a place to go and gather everything that I needed.
The vignettes and stories of her life, the character of her as a little girl, becomes the central character in the film. The stories of her mother and her mother’s mental illness and suffering and belief that she had the claim to that land. It gave so much. I then battled along and I was really happy in the interview that I saw you guys did with Walter Salles, where he said, well, it took about seven years to perfect the script. It took me about that long. And I thought, wow, I’m incredibly slow, but just the layering and the layering and the layering. And then I pulled things from the book, which is where most of it came from. But then there were things I had to sort of concentrate in one time and place, and I made it the war.
At one point, I sort of told the story just as a third person point of view, but then I made it from the child’s point of view because that gave me so much more freedom, particularly with the race stuff. I could say things that I couldn’t say otherwise because a child can say what they hear. And we sort of can accept it in a strange way. We don’t accept it, but we hear it differently. So that was its own episode. And then the directing came to me because I couldn’t find a director that I thought really would understand the material. I showed it to a few people and they sort of got it, but didn’t. And then I just kind of was left holding the baby and I thought, I just have to carry this baby over the finish line.
So it’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life, but also the most rewarding and with a lot of help from a lot of other people, a great cinematographer who really understood the way I wanted the world to look, an amazing cast and so much luck in finding every character that is also good. A fantastic editor who I didn’t know the first thing about editing. I knew what I could see in my mind, but I didn’t know how to execute it. So I had a fantastic editor who was like, and then by the end, it was like being in lockstep with somebody who you were sparking these ideas of a brilliant composer who did the score that was so wonderful.
So the actor in me knew what I wanted the story to be because, and again, I go back to you and you’d know because you’re an actor what it’s like to have a script where there’s a weak spot. But when you think the seven years of building, I built the house and I thought, God, I think the house is strong enough. I think there’s no way that it could fall down. And thank God, because every day on set was an emergency and a weather thing or a child thing or a dog thing or something that it was pretty clear what the dialogue was, what the scenes were, what we needed. And so we could get what we needed to make a movie.
I haven’t had to face any really scary attacks about race or who are you to tell the story. I can only tell the story that I believe the book handed to me. And I guess one can also say, what is the value in telling what you knew or experienced yourself? I’m certainly, I think, showing not a happy example of what I think I saw and experienced. And I think at the time that we were filming, look at what’s happening in the world. The wars, the Ukraine, Russia, Gaza, Israel, just never ends. And there are children watching everywhere, continuing to. There are children listening to the news on the way over here.
So again, even though that’s not a war where necessarily there were bombs going off or being dropped out of airplanes, it was a moment in time where children were taking in the violence, both black and white children.
Raphael Sbarge (voice-over): Jim Jarmusch has been an original and consistent presence on the American independent scene. His new film, Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, winner of the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival, has returned to the form of a grouping of separate and yet interconnected stories. The signature deadpan humor is back, but there’s an added depth of emotion at the conclusion that’s both surprising and deeply satisfying. The cast is exceptional with Jim Jarmusch regulars Tom Waits and Adam Driver joined by new collaborators Charlotte Rampling, Cate Blanchett, Vicky Krieps, Mayim Bialik, Indya Moore, and Luka Sabbat.
FATHER MOTHER SISTER BROTHER with Jim Jarmusch
Raphael Sbarge: You said that Father, Mother, Sister, Brother is a kind of anti-action film. And I wondered if you could just sort of explain when you say anti-action film, what are you resisting?
Jim Jarmusch: Well, you know, it’s not so much an act of resistance and it’s more was a statement I needed to make of some kind, like some kind of catch phrase for the director’s statement, to be honest. But it is true that I was trying to do something devoid of certain expectations like drama, like revenge, violence, sex. I was kind of removing all of those things. And I was just trying to make something that was empathetic in a way, like not judgmental of these characters and purely observational. The metaphor I like is I was sort of creating three small flower arrangements, cinematically, that accumulate. Like they can’t, they don’t go, you can’t look at them separately. The film’s very, very, I’m very proud of how carefully it’s constructed to accumulate.
But you know, if you arrange flowers in a vase and you move a leaf here, you see another color behind, or it’s very delicate, you know, and this was a very delicate film to make. So that was sort of my procedure. And it’s not that I’m, you know, I like all kinds of films. So I watch all kinds of stuff, but I just was focusing on something very simple. And, you know, I have to say it, I’ve said this too, in regards to this film, it takes a lot of effort to make it look effortless. So it was very, we were very, very focused in how this film was kind of would accumulate all these details. There is music through threaded throughout the film, very minimal music.
And it was a little complicated to find it because, for example, Carter Logan and I made music for my film, Paterson. And Paterson is a particular view of the world, a perspective of one character, a central character. In this film, there are no central characters. There’s no one’s particular viewpoint. So a lot of the little music I made for the score was too melancholic or too, it was too intentionally, emotionally giving intent somehow. So it was kind of hard to find the little instrumental score in the film, but instead, like little pieces were created that are more like the air surrounding the characters or like little weather reports rather than emotional like indicators, you know? So it’s very minimal and quiet.
And then there are those, there’s the song Spooky, the cover by Dusty Springfield, which is one of my favorite songs. So that made it in, that’s the only licensed music in the film. And then while creating the score and collaborating with Annika Henderson, she did the two I asked her to do these days, a cover of the song Jackson Brownee song, but Nico’s version is the definitive one for me. And then she did one of Spooky as well, which we put at the front credits. So this is a very minimal film and these are just three afternoons we spend with these people. And so it’s very dialogue oriented.
And so I got into the zone, which I get in occasionally while writing scripts where honestly, they just start talking and I feel as though I’m transcribing what they say rather than it’s coming out of my own head, because I’m so invested in imagining these actors making something with me. They’re not just themselves, they’re playing someone that has elements of themselves. And man, this one was really interesting. I wrote it very fast and I was just sort of listening to them talk and writing it down. And so it’s nothing heavy or intentionally meaningful in any of it, which was my intention too.
And then, you know, I throw a lot of pauses and things in because I’ve always felt I’m also a musician and I feel that the notes not played really affect how we receive the notes that are played. So I’ve always been interested in the things sort of left out. In fact, I’ve tried to make entire films based on things we normally would leave out, like I made a film Night on Earth that are the stories of taxi rides. And in a normal plot, that’s just secondary, that’s not valuable information to advance the story, right? Right. Usually they get in the cab, then they get out of the cab and then, you know, they got, they had a cab ride. But I made the whole film of that.
Or Coffee and Cigarettes are just the moments where we’re not doing the things we’re supposed to be doing. We’re taking a break and using these substances, you know? So those conversations become very free. And yeah, I really like the things that are left out often. And this film, you know, I left out a lot of like meaningfulness or trying to say, deliver a message. But I am trying to engender empathy in some way, you know, of observing other people and not judging them, because all of them are flawed, as we all are. And parents, you know, invariably fuck up their kids in some way. And, you know, and that happens in these little chapters in this film, but yeah, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m saying, guys.
Raphael Sbarge: No, that’s what you just said is absolutely beautiful, absolutely beautiful.
Jim Jarmusch: Well, parents fuck up their kids and they don’t fuck up their kids. I mean, you know, and, yes, and even when, and even when there’s a fucked up relationship, you, there’s still love.
CUTTING THROUGH ROCKS with Sara Khaki and Mohammadreza Eyni
Raphael Sbarge (voice-over): Filmmakers Sara Khaki and Mohammadreza Eyni have managed to secure an Academy Award nomination for their film, Cutting Through Rocks, beautifully shot and masterfully stitched together. Cutting Through Rocks is a film that inspires hope, showing us that the work of a single determined individual can lead to lasting and meaningful change.
Sara Khaki: I was born and raised in Tehran, Iran. And I grew up witnessing so many women like Sara Shahverdi, who’s the lead character in Cutting Through Rocks. You know, in my family, in my extended family, those women who are really living their lives against all the setbacks and just paving the way for the next generation. I would say my sisters in my family are kind of like Sara Shahverdi in my life. And then I left Iran when I was 18, quite young and, and now having lived equally between the two worlds, some of the topics in retrospect, and I can think back, some of the topics that are explored in Cutting Through Rocks, mainly the gender injustice and the way in which women’s body become a battleground, are shared concerns here or elsewhere, you know, where we are from.
And so with these ideas in mind, I also was curious to know how, what about those women who never left our country, our home country, and how are they, how are they doing? How are they pushing boundaries if they can? And so through an extensive research, I came across this really amazing, tenacious individual who’s living in the northwest of Iran, the only female motorcycle rider in the region. She had been a midwife and delivered 400 kids in her rural village back when there was no hospitals. And so when I got a hold of her, I told her, what is she up to? And she, after a few months, she was just back, you know, back and forth phone calls. She shared with me that she’s thinking about running for a council seat.
And I knew that there was a story here, but I also knew that I wouldn’t be able to tell the story on my own, because for two reasons. One is that I needed a collaborator who is great, who is a wonderful cinematographer to be with me. But I also knew that because of the male, you know, because of the setting, because it’s a male dominated, and I knew that, yes, it’s important for me as a woman to tell the story, but I also needed a collaborator who could create a setting for this dialogue to exist. And I had the pleasure of working with Mohammadreza on a past project remotely. I was in New York, Mohammadreza was always in Tehran. And so we had discussed cinema for months and months and months.
So I kind of understood his language, and he understood mine. But so I called, he was the only person I was thinking about to call. So I called Mohammadreza and I said, let’s go to this village together, because there’s a story here.
Mohammadreza Eyni: Yeah, and I’m so grateful that she called me. And actually, it was an amazing chance for me, because I’m coming from the community of Azerbaijani-speaking people in north-west of Iran. So many films that are coming from Iran and you have seen are in Farsi language, and mostly coming from big cities. And this time, it was an amazing chance for me to tell a story coming from my own community. Despite more than 30% of Iranian people who speak this language, it’s rare to find films coming from this region. So I witnessed a lot of same stories of women, teenage years. So when Sara called me, I was like, yes, amazing story. And also for me, as a male director, going to the village and make a film in the intimate film about women was not possible.
So Sara as a female director, made it possible.
Raphael Sbarge: So in situations where you’re maybe excluded or not trusted.
Mohammadreza Eyni: Yeah, exactly. And enter to the village together. But we didn’t expect that you’re going to spend eight years of our lives working on this film.
Raphael Sbarge (voice-over): When The Texas Chain Saw Massacre premiered, it didn’t just scare audiences, it redefined horror itself. In his new documentary, CHAIN REACTIONS, acclaimed director, Alexandre O. Philippe, explores the cultural impact of The Texas Chain Saw Massacre through the voices of five passionate fans who are also acclaimed artists. Whether you’re a lifelong horror fan, a filmmaker, or just curious about the legacy of The Texas Chain Saw Massacre, even if you don’t typically watch horror films, you’ll find fresh insight and passion in our discussion with CHAIN REACTIONS director, Alexandre O. Philippe.
CHAIN REACTIONS with Alexandre O. Philippe
Alexandre O. Philippe: Part of the joy of the Stephen King chapter is precisely the sort of masterclass really on horror versus terror. And I mean, this is the master of horror really sort of taking us through these sort of nuances really. I think that the beauty of a film like The Texas Chain Saw Massacre, and I use the word beauty and I don’t use the word beauty lightly. I mean, it is actually, by the way, a truly beautiful film, is that it’s a film that uses horror and terror in equal measure. But it’s also, as you said earlier, it’s what’s remarkable about it is that this is the kind of film very much like Evil Dead, very much like The Blair Witch Project. Those are films that Hollywood cannot possibly replicate.
You know, the fact that those were filmmakers who had a very, very tiny budget and a very, very big vision and a hunger and a desire to somehow bring that vision across to audiences means that by definition, they had to think outside the box. You know, when you’re a studio movie and you have all these toys at your disposal and basically everything you can wish to have, you’re not going to be thinking outside the box. You’re not going to be inventing shots because you have everything at your disposal. I think that when you watch specifically The Texas Chain Saw Massacre and you think about these guys who were kids, they were kids. They were in their early 20s. And we’re not just talking about Tobe Hooper and Kim Henkel.
We’re talking about Bob Burns, you know, who did these extraordinary props. I mean, it’s just unbelievable, the set design, just down to the crazy little details. It’s almost like they were on fire. They were caught lightning in a bottle in a way that very, very few films are capable of doing. And the thing that’s amazing to me now is that 51 years later, which is crazy to think this film is now 51 years old, but 51 years later, I’ve gotten to experience watching this film on the big screen with young audiences, whether it’s on 35 millimeter or in fact, recently we had a screening in Melbourne, we showed the Australian VHS on the big screen.
Raphael Sbarge: That’s fun.
Alexandre O. Philippe: It was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. I mean, people were just eating it up. And it’s just, it hasn’t lost any of its power or energy. And I think that’s a testament to this extraordinary group of people who got together one day and just made this incredible film happen. The Texas Chain Saw Massacre is not just a horror film. It’s a beautiful film. It’s a terrifying film. It’s a haunting film. It’s a very sad, tragic film as well. It has all of those emotions. And I think that’s why it takes you on this kind of roller coaster, but it’s very, it’s impossible to look at The Texas Chain Saw Massacre and not think about America.
And that’s probably my favorite line from Karyn Kusama in the film is, the thesis of the film seems to be America is a madness and I want you to look at it and experience it. And it’s like, when she said that, I mean, what a gut punch by the way, but what a way to sort of sum up the incredible power of The Texas Chain Saw Massacre. In my early 20s, I waited that long. In my early 20s, I went to college in New York at NYU and I was dating a girl who at the time was going to Yale. And so I would commute on the weekends. I would take the train and go to New Haven. And so one fine day, beautiful day, the sun was shining, the birds were singing in New Haven.
I decided, okay, I’m going to go and I’m going to watch The Texas Chain Saw Massacre. I went and got the VHS tape and a small television screen middle of the day, couldn’t be safer. And I popped it in. And my first thing was that when Sally starts screaming and she doesn’t stop and it felt like an hour. It felt like I was, I just felt like I was going, like in my mind, I was going mad. And then the dinner scene when Tobe gets into these extreme close-up of her eyeball, I literally thought I was losing my mind. I had to pause. I couldn’t take it. And so I went outside and I went around the block a couple of times and I listened to the birds. I remind myself, you know, it’s a beautiful world after all.
And then I went back in and I finished the film. And to this day, it’s the only film I had to pause because I couldn’t handle it. And so that was my first time since watching it. And I was terrified. I was like, oh my gosh, if I couldn’t handle it on VHS on a small screen in the middle of the day, like, can I really face this thing on the big screen in the dark? You know, like, it was an absolutely terrifying idea. And so I did. I went in and I took a deep breath. And the funny thing that happened is that that day, a few shots in, I became completely entranced by the grain, the beauty, the colors.
And so, as I said earlier, the beauty and the poetry and the sadness of The Texas Chain Saw Massacre revealed themselves to me now through that beautiful restoration. And it was a completely different experience, you know, and I’ve been a fan ever since. Tonally, it’s a very complex film. It’s a film that really challenges you also about the way you think about those characters. Leatherface, I think it’s Corin who says that he’s a child. He’s being bullied. He’s constantly freaked out. There’s this extraordinary close up after he goes to the window and look and see what’s going on. Why are all these hippies showing up in my house there and being invaded? But then, you know, there’s these really sort of slapstick moments, but then there’s also really sad moments.
You know, the close up on Leatherface when his wheels are turning and you get a glimpse of his soul and what’s going on. And you’re like, well, wait a minute. There’s actually really someone there behind that mask. I mean, it’s a very important shot. It’s a crucial shot to have in the film.